Pastors that hunt/conflicting priorities

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Pastors that hunt/conflicting priorities

Postby thumper » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:20 pm

I just removed this Post from the Pastors forum, and thought I would post it here.

I'm not a Pastor or teacher in any church setting, but from a layman’s point, all be it probably considered a rebellious, stubborn layman in some circles, I have my own take on the subject.
I have never felt that Man was made to attend church, Period!

Now before you fall off your chair, I'll add, that I have always felt that the church was designed for man to attend.
It is not the only important aspect in his life that needs attention, even on a Sunday, let alone on weeknights. Some denominations will have activities every night of the week, and expect the people to show up. This means that the Church totally controls the lives of the people. They become chattel of the denomination and are controlled in every aspect and Spiritual abuse is used to make them feel guilty for not showing up for a particular service time or weekly event.

God has also provided a wife and family, and with that there are activities that will require them to skip a church service if the kids want to take part in something. The choice then is: Should a Christian take part in a Non-Christian event, if it is held on a Sunday or a weeknight that conflicts with a bible study. Many denominations will say it is a sin to choose to attend the event. And yet how will you inject the spirit of God into a secular event unless you allow those who have the spirit to attend. Of course everything must be done within reason and for the right motive. If the person is using the event to avoid attending the service, he has a much deeper problem to deal with, one that he isn't willing to confront openly, so he uses an excuse.

I guess I am trying to say, Man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man. Lets see, where have I heard a saying like that before hmmnn?

I have to say that out of all the churches I have attended over my 32 years as a Christian, (we've moved several times all across western Canada), there was only two that I felt totally comfortable with in every aspect, and I'm a really independent thinker and not easily swayed or influenced by peer pressure, so I can only imagine the pressure others must feel. Those two churches had pastors that hunted.
For that reason I would organize hunting trips to go on and invite the pastors to attend as well as the husbands (un churched) of some of the ladies who attended the church by themselves, and pay for the entire hunt myself, ( I had lots of money back then). During the time it takes to drive half way across western Canada, or up towards the Yukon to attend a hunt, a lot can be said in the cab of a truck, and you have a captive audience. It has always proved beneficial, and I even convinced Pastors to give up their Sunday service to attend the hunts.
Let the Elders or Deacons take the reins for a Sunday, it's good for them, and it lets the church know that the Pastor isn't the church. The people are, and it is up to them to continue the church. The pastor is only there for direction, teaching, encouragement and guidance, it is the people who must be equipped for service, and should be prepared to minister to one another and not just sit back and be ministered to.

Hope I didn’t step on anyone’s toes too much, it wasn't my intention to upset anybody!
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Postby oz n bolivia » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:32 pm

http://www.pistolpackingpreachers.us/firstpage.html

About a year ago I found this site. I know a couple of others that could add their names to the list.

thumper I have to agree with what you are saying.

Preachers and the outdoors yes, now let me run another idea by you all.

GOD told Moses this on the stone tablets:
(Young Literal translation)
Exodus 20:8 `Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it;
Exodus 20:9 six days thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work,
Exodus 20:10 and the seventh day [is] a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, --
Exodus 20:11 for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it.

(ASV)
Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
Exodus 20:11 for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.


It does not say we will start counting from Sunday or Monday the seventh day was to be a day of rest and reverence. Since the week is a circle can not a working man not work his six days Tuesday through Sunday, man's labels for the days, and have Monday as his Sabbath?

If I was a pastor I would have a church service on Monday for those that work on Sunday and have Monday free I would do a survey of the community and offer a day of church for those that had whatever day free because they worked on Sunday. The Pastor could have his Sabbath when it was best for the congregation. The SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN.

There are some groups that have set Saturday as the Sabbath because they feel like the Jews all have to celebrate the Sabbath at the same time.

What is Saturday and Sunday called? The week-end! what is the Last day of the week-end? Sunday so that would make Sunday the seventh day.

Is it not strange what the Catholic church and man had done to this verse.

Exodus 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;

GOD never named the days of the week, that was mans doing. It was man setting what day of the week was the Sabbath.

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Postby GeneralHavok » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:44 pm

While growing up, I was at church when just about anything was happening there. I suppose some might have thought that I was being an obedient kid, because we were a fairly legalistic church...you were supposed to support the activities there, and not let 'the world' get in the way.

Fortunately for me, I didn't know that my church was like that until I got older. I went because I enjoyed myself, and the people I met there.

Today, after having been a pastor, I can say that I don't feel obligated to attend church on any given Sunday. I believe that we're to meet specifically with other Christians for fellowship, education, and worship...but not compulsively.

Please - nobody should take that as an excuse to skip church. We don't need an excuse to skip church...but we do need to make sure we're surrounded by our brothers and sisters on a very regular basis. Let's just avoid turning a blessing into a shackle.

Thanks for posting, thumper. Does anybody else want to share? =)
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Postby Mike Brooks » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:39 pm

My feelings about hunting on Sunday, where I come from when deer season came around, schools would shut down, businesses really had no business unless you sold hunting gear, and church...well hunters many of them missed Sunday services because they were out deer hunting :oops: . Even the Packers took a back seat during deer hunting season :roll: , I know a few would argue with me on this point, but with that being said, I have heard both arguments about hunting on Sunday, many say yes and some say no! All I can say is "I am with you fella's". :shock: Fact is, its a way of life in the great state of Wisconsin.
Last edited by Mike Brooks on Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby thumper » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:11 pm

Thanks for the input guys.

One of the reasons this is kind of a lets say" warm " issue for me is that when I was a young christian and living in logging and mining towns, I had occassion to sit under a pastor that truly wanted control of the people, and would use this is a club for missing service, which if you know me by now, didn't go well.
Many husbands worked shift work, and if they wanted their jobs they had no choice, and I was a Forest Officer and had to be on call during the fire season, so would miss many many services.

I also hold the view that God established a new covenant with his people that we are no longer under the Law but under Grace. That we don't pay tribute to, and reverence God only on any particular day, but we are to reverence God on every day as he now lives within our heart at the sending of and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the comforter. Not only at the feet of the priest during a sacrificial offering for sins, or confession of sins, once a week. As far as coming together as christians, God is clear, whereever two or more are gathered he is in our midst. This can be during a lunch break sitting by our chainsaws, or in a mountain meadow waiting for the Bull to show himself, and fellowshipping with a brother. I am not advocating christains don't go to church, as they do need not only instruction, they need especially to be in a position to help others and be blessed by that action.
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Postby Vance in AK. » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:30 pm

Here's my take on it.
As a pastor I don't have a problem with someone taking the OCCASSIONAL Sunday for hunting (I do it myself a couple of times a year. My congregation knows well I not indispencable :grin: ).
Heb. 10:24-25 "and let us consider how ato stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25 not forsaking our own aassembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."
What's you habit?
Folks should be surprised when you are gone from a regular church service.


You hit a real key with these words.
"as they do need not only instruction, they need especially to be in a position to help others and be blessed by that action.".
It's not all about me & what I need, it's all about the body & what I have to give them.
MOST of the time, when we are in the field on a church day it's not with the motive of
"but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near".
It's because we want to be hunting!!!!

At our church we meet Sun morn, Sun eve, & Wed night.
I can tell you that based on the growth I see in the lives of believers in our church, none of those services is redundant or superfalus (sp?)
All are engeniered with something specific in mind to promote the growth of the believer (If you want I can share those specifics with you.).
It's those that reguraly attend all three that appear to be growing the most in their relationship w/Christ.

It doesn't sound like you are in this spot, but two many folks have a "what can the church do for me" attitude, rather than a "what can I do for the believers in the church" attitude.

I Cor. 12 speaks much of how we are each given spiritual gifts primarily for use in the localk body of believers, & says that when any part isn't playing their part the body is handicapped.
Scripture also shows us that there needs to be an intimacy & trust among the brothers & sisters in a church & that doesn't happen without spending a good bit of time together.


By the way, it's interesting to note that the verse you quote (Matt 18:20)
"whereever two or more are gathered he is in our midst" is specically given by Jesus, not in the context of how we are to worship, but about a group (The 2 or more) bringing church discipline against a sinning & unrepentant brother (v:15-20.)
Vance in AK.

Matthew 6:33
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
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Postby Mike Brooks » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:17 pm

Vance great point, thanks..
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Postby GeneralHavok » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:36 am

thumper wrote:I also hold the view that God established a new covenant with his people that we are no longer under the Law but under Grace. That we don't pay tribute to, and reverence God only on any particular day, but we are to reverence God on every day as he now lives within our heart at the sending of and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the comforter...I am not advocating christains don't go to church, as they do need not only instruction, they need especially to be in a position to help others and be blessed by that action.

Well put, brother.
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Postby Smokewagon » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:21 pm

When looking at this topic, the toughest part is where to start? From a true "legalist" point of view, missing a Sunday, or Wed. service is not even an option. You simply MUST be there or your Christianity could be questioned. After all, one of the Commandments is to keep the Sabbath Day Holy! (But isn't the Sabbath Day Saturday?)

By generations, my dad was not allowed to play baseball because the games were played on Sunday. When my two older brothers were of baseball age, they could play on Sunday, but only after going to church first. By the time I made it, my dad preferred that I attend church first, but some of the out-of-town games required travel at the same time as the service. Does this mean that legalism was beginning to slow down, or that playing ball took precidence over church attendance?

I will admit to hunting on Sunday's, although I do my best to finish in time to get home by Sat. night. If I let it, there are some "guilty" feelings felt when I miss, but is it because of the legalism or missing out on worshipping with the brethren?

My pastor loves to hunt, and would hunt every chance he gets. I take him out hunting or shooting as often as he can get away, and we really get into some good conversations. With all of the stress he goes through every week, I feel that he needs to get out of the office for some fun like the rest of us. I don't remember him ever missing a Sunday service due to hunting, but if he did, I would not think anything less of him.

Regarding spending time with or attending "non-Christian" events, we are to mingle with the lost and be a good example to them. Didn't Christ hang around sinners to the chagrin of the Pharisees? Didn't he eat and heal on the Sabbath (Matt. 12)?

These are tough issues. I think each one of us has to read the verses and determine what is right. In other words, what might be OK for you might feel like a sin to me, and visa-versa.
Last edited by Smokewagon on Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby TRMichels » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:30 pm

I think we all "need" to attend a Christian service (with others as the church) on a fairly regular basis, because when we do so we interact with Yahweh in a communal setting (where two or three are gathered), and being Catholic, it gives me a chance to participate in the Lord's Supper (communion), which Jesus said we should do.

We need to give praise and glory (not just prayers/asking and supplications) to Yahweh on a regular basis - why not do it in church?

Whether that day is on Sunday, the original Sabbath (which was Saturday) or any other day, as long as we do it in a communal setting - I think we (meaning the entire Christian church) benefit from it

God bless,

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Postby oz n bolivia » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:24 pm

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I hope what I am about to say will not have me boiled in oil.

The Jews carried to excess this commandment. GOD was talking about WORK. I feel sorry for all pastors because they have to keep the day Holy for their congregations, but they have to WORK on the sabbath! Violators! I do not count fishing as work, nor hunting, nor recreational sports. They are not labors but rest and rejuvnating. I think we should praise GOD every day but that one day in 7 is a special day to honor GOD praise him more than daily and do as he did rest and relax. That is what I think he wanted. The Jews did double work on the day before the sabbath so they wife or maid would not do any house work. Good plan, take the whole family fishing, and picnicing get out and enjoy GODS work. That is resting in my understanding. Maybe we ought to go to Church on Saturday and really rest on Sunday, that way the pastors could rest also.

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Postby the shootist » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:50 pm

The sabbath day was Friday evening to Saturday evening -- the seventh day. Sunday (or the first day) is NOT the sabbath day. The disciples met on the first day of the week; they took up an offering on the first day of the week; Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week; Paul preached until midnight :cool: on the first day of the week.

Sunday is the longest day of my week, as a Pastor and Preacher. I am up at 0530, and rarely hit the sack until after 2300. As a Police Officer for 30 years, I worked 3 Sundays out of 4, so I am familiar with that. Depending on the shift I was working, I usually made it to one of the Sunday services (before I became a pastor.)

Can you miss a service and still be right with God? Sure, but like thumpper said, if it becomes a habit, it's likely a bad habit. I need to be preached to, and I need the fellowship of other Christians. Can I get this fellowship while fishing or hunting? Yes, I can, but it just seems to be sweeter in the confines of a local church where the man of God is plugged in a shellin' the corn up front. :wink:

I try not to be out of the pulpit more than two or three Sunday's in the year. And even then, I get asked to preach in the church I attend while I am away from my own, oftentimes. I try to do my hunting through the week -- less traffic then, anyways, with all the weekend warriors.
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Postby silvertip » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:47 pm

being a part of a loving fellowship is probably the greatest thing going...having had to move for work and leaving that behind showed me the value...that was a while ago...I am lucky now and have serious fellowship on a daily basis...but the need for the traditional Sunday deal is not what I consider the most valuable...just putting in time is just that...after attending every kind of church imaginable over my lifetime , the one that was in my friends living room was by far the best...and it wasn't on a Sunday...we had teaching , worship and a time to pray for one another...I really believe this is where the Body of Christ is heading...we came in our regular clothes...and we took turns watching the little ones...and many times shared a meal...I truly got to know these saints...and was able to give and be given to...not much "faking " going on either...everyone was growing in the Lord, and had a sense of family...what I read was taking place in the second chapter of acts...in my mind this should be our goal...this is the only way that we will truly fulfill our destiny...

the mega churches and even not so "mega" have a trail of wounded believers in there wake...and some of the denominations just keep getting saved every week...the ease of pretending in some group's is way too easy...and Leaders leading false lives...the Body of Christ is in the process of a major housecleaning !!I think quality is by far more important than quantity...and the Sunday thing is an old tradition and should not be used as the absolute criteria for Gods plan......all that matters is that you do have something...no need to feel guilty or be condemned because you don't fulfill someone else's ideas of what is right...the huge controversy with some denominations and large groups is coming to the surface now...way too many have wasted money and ripped off the church...the new issue of Charisma Mag...and others are all bringing this to the open air...what has been considered the norm for so long maybe needs a re-evaluation ...every week another leader is revealed in some kind of unGodly activity...and I for one am sick and tired of these guys...divorces,adultery and even murders are on the TV about the discrepancies & indicretions of some supposed Full Gospel churches...every time I see this I wince inside...and it is for sure an insult to our God as well...it just gives ammunition to our enemy...and is equal with espionage , desertion or treason...and no, this is not an attack from Satan...but I believe the Holy Spirit revealing the truth...we as believers need to wake up & make sure whatever we are doing or giving to is what God wants us to...

if you are a part of a fellowship that is feeding you not only the word but also giving you a chance to understand how to be real and walk out your Christianity in a practical way & give you an oppurtunity to grow in your gifts you are very fortunate...and regardless of what day of the week it is ... and IMO is not of any real significance at all...I am sure this will get a rise out of some...also hunting on Sunday...as far as I am concerned go for it...most seasons are only a few weeks a year...and a lot of us have to work 6 days a week...God wont be bothered...just do whatever as unto the Lord...

In my lifetime I have seen so many saints give up on the big prize...and accept the mediocre...sure..they are believers and have all eternal privileges...but a lot did not accomplish what they could have for the kingdom of God...many fell into sin, and others just did not finish the game...some actually walked away from the Lord...and I am sorry to say a large number of them were pastors and minsters of large denominations and churches ...what are we to do?? I think the first thing is to make sure we are part of something that is 100% honest and stable... and make sure we are living true to our God and also to the saints God has placed us with...
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Postby GeneralHavok » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:55 am

oz n bolivia wrote:I hope what I am about to say will not have me boiled in oil.

LOL...no, there will be no oil-boiling here!

GOD was talking about WORK.

Yes, God was talking about work...but not, from what I understand, physical work. God seems to have been talking about spiritual work.

The sabbath goes back to Genesis. God rested after creating...not because He was tired, of course, but because His work had been completed.

The priests working in the tabernacle and temple never got to sit down on the job because their work was never done. There were no chairs in either place, making it obvious that this was so. Sacrifices had to be made over and over again, year after year and day after day...their spiritual work wouldn't be completed under that system because it was inadequate for dealing with man's spiritual condition.

Jesus said "it is finished" while on the cross...then, when He went to Heaven, He sat down at the right hand of the Father. We read in Hebrews that He sat down because His priestly work had been completed.

The word 'sabbath' means REST. God did it, priests could not. Jesus did it, and now we can do it too. While there's still a permanent rest for us in Heaven, we have entered into a sabbath because of what Jesus did. This isn't based on a specific day, but on our faith in Christ. We read about this in a number of places, including Hebrews.

It's for this reason that I reject any teaching that implies any spiritual lack for those who fail to worship on Sunday. Having been a pastor, I can tell you that those who run the service often get little from it. I don't know whether that's part of the job, or if we're simply doing church wrong...but leading the flock is hard work. Most pastors take Mondays off for a reason, and it's not because they're so well-rested that they can't get going.
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